Julie (00:00)
Hi, Aileen. How are you?
Aileen (00:02)
Hi Julie, I'm really good, thanks, Although I am a bit tired as usual because I woke up at two o'clock this morning. what is going on with us? It's not even three o'clock anymore. What's happening? Is it cortisol or is it something else? As always, a bit isn't it?
Julie (00:06)
I woke up at 1 o'clock! Oh my gosh! I don't know. No, I know.
I think there's always. Yeah,
Yeah, that's thing.
actually, I think that's why this conversation stays really important because we have been talking so much lately about cortisol, particularly since that episode we did on being constantly on.
and what that does to the body over time. So we need to actually watch out for this because our body's waking at one and two o'clock is not brilliant.
Aileen (00:40)
It is not actually, oh God, I'm trying to think of research that I did a while back about time. And if you wake between two and four every night, the impact on your body, it's so unhealthy. So we need to change it somehow.
Julie (00:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, we absolutely do. Well, that's what struck me since we did that episode on being constantly on, you know, because after that, we started to look at cortisol a lot more. And I don't think either of us realized at the beginning how much cortisol sits underneath so many of the things that women in midlife are struggling with. it's not just about feeling stressed emotionally. It's about what happens when the body's been under this kind of low grade alert for years.
and the other thing I've realized is that getting cortisol down isn't nearly as straightforward as people make it sound. Cause that was something when we realized it was cortisol, we're like, okay, what do we do? But it's, it's not easy. It's not just a supplement. And I mean, yes, there's breathing and stuff, but it's not just that either. It's actually letting go of things, slowing down, renegotiating how we live. And it gets pretty uncomfortable because a lot of that stuff is deeply tied up.
in self-worth, right?
Aileen (01:50)
Yeah, that part really surprised me actually. At first I thought this would be a practical conversation with practical fixes. But once we started looking properly at cortisol, it really became clear that it's much bigger than that. Because when your system is constantly switched on, the question, it's not just how do I calm it? The question becomes, why is it so hard for me to prioritize calming it,
And that's not a physiology question. It's an identity question. So if you've built your sense of self-worth around being capable, reliable, and always coping, slowing down can really feel threatening. It's so strange, isn't it? this fear that something might unravel if you stop so tightly.
Julie (02:33)
It is, yeah.
Yeah, it's a massive fear actually. You don't realize you haven't until you actually have to start unpicking it. And it's why this sort of journey we've had has felt less like a wellness topic and it's more like a truth telling one.
Because cortisol is not just responding to emergencies, it's responding to mental load, emotional labor, constant availability, all the stuff that comes down to self-worth, you know, and responding to years of being the one who anticipates, absorbs, keeps things steady. But I think as we always talk about in midlife, hormonally, we don't have the same buffering. We once had our bodies are different, estrogen used to soften the impact of that kind of stress. But once that shifts cortisol,
becomes much louder and less forgiving. So suddenly poor sleep, puffiness, which I've had massively. I've had inflammation. You've had a lot of inflammation as well. It's Yeah. And the changes in the skin, cellulite, that's what I've had, And you look at it you go like, you feel like a failure, don't you? It's horrible. but it's not aging.
Aileen (03:31)
Loads of us, amount.
Julie (03:43)
gone wrong, body that has just been on overdrive for far too long,
Aileen (03:49)
Yeah, It's such a weird one. think because you and I, what was it? We were talking the other day about being big thinkers and I think because we're always, our brains are always on. It doesn't help. Like even today I can see the puffiness under my eyes and it was a lot of thinking.
Julie (04:05)
Yeah, see I, I, I know. Well, I have it
here around my face. I can see the puffiness comes in because the body just can't absorb it. It's just shocking with the lack of estrogen. The cortisol just, it's not fair. know, actually, and young, look how much estrogen we had, you know, your cortisol could go up and your body was fine. And testosterone, yeah.
Aileen (04:11)
Yeah, yeah. Not fair is it? like that when we travelled and we were free, carefree.
I'm testosterone.
Julie (04:30)
Your cortisol could go up and your body coped a lot better, but now, but it's that constantly on thing as well, isn't it? Cause it's okay. It's the hormones and all of that. But I think at this life stage, there's so much that triggers it because there was this moment recently actually that really brought this home for me. So I was trying to buy Harry Styles tickets for Quora and it was the full experience. I don't know what it's like over there, but if you're going to concert coming up here and you want to buy tickets.
Aileen (04:33)
Yeah.
noise.
Julie (04:55)
Yeah, it's not easy. You sit out, open the page, you log into Tic-A-Tac or whatever it is. You get put into a waiting room and then you watch this countdown as you're in the waiting room. You've got to keep refreshing the page and you hope you get through before it's sold out. and then you get through and then you see some mad scramble. cause as you're in there, the seats are disappearing. So you're like, ⁓ I'll get that. no, that's horrible. But because I'm so violent.
Aileen (05:16)
Wow. Chaos!
Julie (05:22)
But because I've been on this cortisol journey, like we've been talking about it a lot. When I was doing that, I became so aware in the moment of what was happening in my body, that my stomach tightened. I could feel that familiar bloatedness and I was sort of braced and breathing a bit more shallow. My shoulders were tense. It was like my whole system had flipped into alert mode over something that let's face it was not life threatening at all.
Aileen (05:48)
No, it sounds
crazy but I get it, I do.
Julie (05:52)
Your body just braces right
as if it's final flight. But before I would have just pushed through that feeling and thought nothing of it, but I really was aware of it. Well, I'm much more aware of it these days and you can feel that stress response as it's happening and you can hear your body saying, right, we need to mobilize. And I think our bodies have that response way too many times these days. Like we say, we're always on.
Aileen (05:57)
Yeah.
well, Harry is still sick. I'm just thinking he's got a lot to answer for for your cortisol issues. I hadn't realised that. Get Harry out your line. Actually, did you get the tickets?
Julie (06:22)
On that day, yeah. ⁓
I
didn't but there was a sort of like a group of a few mums so a couple of the other mums did so collectively the girls have got tickets but you know at the time I know we were working like dolphins.
Aileen (06:37)
or you were working like dolphins.
Or orca, man. It's such a good example though because these moments are everywhere now. Like as you said, we are always on. Booking things online, replying to emails and texts. And you know, I'm like, if there's too many emails in my inbox, I go into overwhelm and panic mode. I'm constantly telling you and you've kindly done one email.
Julie (07:02)
You are.
Aileen (07:05)
Aileen, you're so the 10 thing. I'm very grateful. That's helped my cortisol. And yet, you think of all the things we've done. the countries we travel to, I've traveled on my own and lived in countries on my own with a child. But no, cause way more stress. And then there's all these schedules to manage and I don't drive in London, so I'm constantly looking up.
Julie (07:07)
Good?
No, it's a lot.
Aileen (07:32)
journeys to go here, there and everywhere and it actually does eventually stress me out because it's all the time but it used to be so easy for me, it didn't bother me. It's this damn estrogen I believe.
Julie (07:44)
I know, well yeah, it's like that
planning isn't so easy, right? When you've got the brain fog and then it becomes stressful.
Aileen (07:49)
⁓ no, brain fog.
the brain fog's horrific. But we'll go And none of them are huge on their own. Let's face it, but they do create this constant drip of activation.
Julie (07:59)
Yeah, actually that's a really good way to put it, a constant drip of activation. And then when you layer that on top of the emotional responsibility and years of carrying things, it's just this background hum that never really switches off. So it's not surprising that our cortisol is high, but what is surprising for me anyway, and I know you were the same, was just how many physical symptoms suddenly clicked once we understood.
cortisol properly. think there should be so much more information for women out there about cortisol because it explains so much, right? Like the puffiness, the swollen, inflamed feeling we were saying before, weight gain. I your body's just holding on to stuff and a lot of stuff that's really triggering for women like cellulite, know, bloating, they're loaded words, and we're taught to see all of that as failure. But then when you learn that cortisol breaks down collagen,
and elastin, like the structural proteins that gives skin support are broken down by cortisol, then it makes sense, right? Like that connective tissue is under stress, estrogen is already declining in midlife, so that support weakens. and add into that cortisol-driven inflammation and fluid retention, and you've just got more pressure under...
thinner skin. And so when you look at it logically like that, and you know the science behind it, it makes a lot of sense. And it does take a bit of the emotion out of it because you can go, okay. Because it's so triggering when your body does that, you know? And the other thing that I actually, I've got to say the screenshot of this, constantly high cortisol breaks down muscle. I found that fact.
Aileen (09:25)
Thank
Julie (09:33)
So alarming. I was asking Gemini, I said to Gemini, can you tell me a bit more about the relationship between
cortisol and muscle? And she said literally, cortisol is a muscle eater. I'm actually gonna post that online. We all need to know, I'm gonna post that screenshot. took a screenshot.
Aileen (09:47)
⁓ gosh, well that's great. That's absolutely fantastic to know. So you do all the weights, you eat the
protein, but no, the cortisol has taken it all away. That's great. I actually, I had a lot of cellulite and then I got rid of most of it when I moved to Spain, because I was at my fittest. I was exercising. I ate clean food all the time. And then I moved back to London, the hormones kicked in.
Julie (09:59)
Yeah, that's it.
Aileen (10:15)
and all the bloating that you're talking about cortisol, slow digestion I've discovered and increase my inflammation. So that hard, almost armoured feeling in the abdomen isn't always about food because sometimes it's the nervous system just being on guard, just thinking about this. Can you remember?
Julie (10:18)
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Aileen (10:40)
when my stomach was so sore I had to go to A &E and they thought I was passing kidney stones, don't know you remember a couple of years ago. And my belly was so swollen but it was actually Hashimoto kicking in and that was inflammation and it was so scary.
Julie (10:44)
Yes, I do. Yes.
And no wonder it came out at that time with the move. Like everything was very stressful at that time too.
Aileen (10:59)
And then I changed my diet, coming back to UK I started to introduce a lot of processed food again, like cakes and things, all of it together. And then what do we usually do? We double down, we restrict, we push harder, we assume we need more control, but the body, it's not looking for control, it's just asking for relief. But it's hard to do that when you've got so much going on.
Julie (11:05)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it's hard. It is really hard, I think. And I think one of the hardest truths for women, for me especially, but also other women in midlife, is just accepting that our midlife bodies, they don't process stress the way they used to. We just have to accept that. We don't recover as quickly. Like the same workload feels heavier. You the same emotional labor hits harder. But
Aileen (11:39)
and ⁓
Julie (11:46)
Because we don't really realize that instead of adjusting the load, you just blame yourselves and then you carry it that actually makes the load worse. It increases the stress.
Aileen (11:53)
isn't that terrible? Yeah and huge. We're still living like we're in our 30s, well some of us, but our physiology has shifted and of course like you were saying, you know it's less forgiving now. You can't just push through and expect to bounce back later because later never really arrives and the irony is
The more overwhelmed you feel, the more you tighten. So you try to control more, you do more, you achieve more. And that just keeps the cortisol elevated, which is not good.
Julie (12:29)
Yeah?
yeah exactly it creates a vicious cycle right and this is where it becomes really uncomfortable because once you realize cortisol is high and it's contributing to a lot of your physical issues then you go okay how do I get that down and we're so conditioned to look for something to add right a routine a hack a supplement but this is the thing
that we've realized and where self-worth comes in, guess, is that one of the biggest drivers of cortisol, you know, it's not what you're missing, it's what you're refusing to stop. it's the constant saying yes, the constant proving, the constant overriding your own needs, the guilt at lightening your load or shifting your priorities. So yeah, inevitably it becomes a self-worth conversation.
Aileen (13:13)
Yeah it does because lowering cortisol means valuing rest. It means believing that you don't have to earn your right to slow down. It means trusting that things won't collapse if you're not constantly braced, which I feel like I am all the time at moment. And if your worth has been built on coping or holding it all together, being indispensable, this shift really can feel quite terrifying because there's this deep fear underneath.
Julie (13:29)
my gosh, yeah.
Aileen (13:42)
it. It says, if I stop, I won't be needed, or worse, if I stop, I won't be valuable. It's ridiculous.
Julie (13:48)
It is ridiculous, but that's the emotional layer I suppose you don't expect, right? When you go on this journey of cortisol, you know, I mean, I'm still on the journey because my cortisol can still skyrocket occasionally. And it's so weird because when I realized the issue was cortisol, I did think it'd be pretty simple. You know, you think, yeah, and actually did I bought the magnesium, did the bath, the breathing and all those things really helped. I mean, the magnesium baths genuinely helped.
Aileen (13:50)
Mm.
Julie (14:16)
So I've added those to my routine as well as the breathing. and I mean, you know, obviously eating protein in the morning, cause that stabilizes blood sugar, prevents those stress spikes and swapped coffee for cacao. ⁓ as long as you don't have four a day that I was doing, cause that it does work.
Aileen (14:33)
which is ⁓ so, I'm just having a cacao, Aileen. I'm
I'm sure you just had one like two minutes ago.
Julie (14:43)
So you do all those things, which you do one kick out in the morning instead of your coffee, that's enough. ⁓ You do those things and you know, they can help, but the question is much bigger than that.
You know, can I allow myself to get my cortisol down? Do I believe I'm worth this care? Because though you've got all those techniques in the world, if you still feel you have to prove yourself through productivity or earn your worth through doing or being more in some way, your body's still staying on guard because you'll not draw the boundaries, you know, you won't lower your workload if your self-worth is tied to those things.
Aileen (15:22)
It's really interesting you're saying all this actually because I read an article yesterday and it was a 70 year old lady saying she didn't realise that she just proved all her life that she was capable and was there for everyone. And then it dawned on her now at 70 that actually she never found joy for herself. And now she was in this moment. So she had her courses all was a big issue for her.
she only realises now at least we're realising it now yeah I know it's really sad isn't it but that's what happens to a lot of women this generation it won't happen to our children I don't think because they're seeing something completely different
Julie (15:52)
that's really tough to realise at 70. Really sad to think.
different or they're valuing
themselves in different they're valuing different things about themselves which is yeah yeah
Aileen (19:12)
And not through force, but through care.
Julie (19:15)
Yeah, definitely a much kinder way to live in your body.
Aileen (19:18)
So thanks for listening. If this one's resonated, send us a DM or email us at hello at youkeepmesayne.com.
Julie (19:24)
And don't forget to follow us on Insta at ukeetmesayne.pod. We'll see you next time.
Aileen Aileen (16:11)
And we're all teaching them different things as well.
But the body responds to safety. It doesn't respond to willpower, which I've learned the hard way actually. And safety isn't just physical, it's emotional. It's knowing you don't have to perform to belong. I feel like it's hard to keep the body calm when we're teens, because their hormones are all over the place and ours are all over the place. And I really...
Julie (16:32)
Yeah.
Aileen (16:38)
I actually noticed recently after a moment with my team that hot flush came on really fast and furious and I thought it might be cortisol. So I looked it up and yep, it was cortisol rising rapidly. All these wonderful experiences we're having.
Julie (16:54)
my gosh, so many wonderful experiences. That is
interesting about the hot flush because I've had that too. Not now really post menopause, but I remember a couple of years ago having that stress response turning into a hot flush. Like it's crazy, you know, like it is amazing, but I think this whole, it's a perfect storm for us, right? Going through menopause at the same time as raising teens.
Aileen (17:10)
Weird, amazing, amazing your body does.
Julie (17:21)
living in an always on cyber world, you know, it's a recipe for disaster. And that's if that's going to be a disaster, even if you don't have self worth issues, that I think one of the biggest shifts for me in helping to change my cortisol levels has been learning to notice when my body is on, it's like that tightness in your stomach, the braced feeling like you do brace like you can just feel it, you know, and instead of pushing through
Aileen (17:44)
Mm, yeah.
Julie (17:48)
just sort of pausing like it sounds simple, but it's actually not simple to do because we've spent decades ignoring those signals or not prioritizing them because often turning to sort of off mode, it compromises yourself worth in some way because you have to say, I can't, or, I don't have the capacity. You have to draw these boundaries or step back. And that has historically been uncomfortable and it challenges what we think our value is.
Aileen (18:13)
gosh, absolutely. And when you do pause or you draw a boundary or a prior to de-escalation of the nervous system, sometimes there's this almost audible exhale in the body, like it's been waiting for you to pay attention. Suddenly you realize your body hasn't been fighting you, that it's actually been protecting you and holding onto fluid, staying alert, conserving energy.
Those responses make sense once you understand what the system thinks it's dealing with.
Julie (18:43)
Yeah, it does make sense. Absolutely. So I think, yeah, so if you're listening and you think this is me, I'm exhausted, inflamed, foggy, wired, but tired, there's nothing wrong with you.
Aileen (18:54)
Yeah, your body has been carrying too much for too long.
Julie (18:57)
Yeah and midlife is often the moment I think when the body says we can't keep doing this the same way. So lowering cortisol isn't about fixing yourself, it isn't about becoming calmer or more disciplined, it's just about finally treating yourself as someone worth protecting.
(19:28)
Bye.
